Implemented The Next Step For Ubers Tiering

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
Ubers is at a juncture at the moment with its tiering development, and so we as tier leaders and as a council have decided to receive a bit more detailed feedback from the community as to what our next step should be. As Fc detailed in his Survey Results post, we have decided that Ubers will be holding a suspect test to address issues that the playerbase has within the tier. Satisfaction numbers are lower than we have ever seen on a survey before, and action needs to be taken to address this for us to have a healthy metagame. However, there is a split in opinion among the playerbase as to what our exact next step should be, in terms of what the best way forward is. Broadly speaking, we have three possible targets for a suspect test, and will be using this thread as a guideline to the wants of the playerbase before we decide which one we want to target first. The three in question are as follows:

  • Miraidon is one of the strongest Pokémon ever released. In terms of raw damage, it outclasses even Mega Rayquaza. It is one of the most meta defining Pokémon of all time, and is a brutal combination of speed, bulk, and power. Miraidon does have a handful of checks, but these are Pokémon that are very easily exploited by the other Pokémon in the tier. This is due to their inherently passive nature in an offensive metagame. This is not akin to Calyrex-Shadow last generation, whose premier check was Yveltal, widely agreed to be a top 3 Pokémon in the tier at absolute worst. Defensive power creep has also taken place though, most notably with Ting-Lu now existing and being immune to Electric-type moves, meaning Miraidon normally has to click Draco Meteor against it to take it out, which is incredibly exploitable, especially against offensive teams. In spite of that, the aforementioned pokemon are regularly seen in some of the most common team structures and do manage to put pressure on Miraidon in some form or another, even if they don't outright counter it. It can also be said that some effective ways to check Miraidon rely on offensive alternatives that can outspeed and KO, such as Zacian-Crowned's Play Rough (although less used nowadays). Less common options include Iron Bundle, a pokemon that can outspeed Miraidon and threaten with STAB Ice Beam (although it does need prior damage against Miraidon, unless using the very rare Choice Specs set) and Deoxys-Attack who can outspeed and KO Miraidon with Psycho Boost. Strong priority moves such as Extreme Speed from Arceus and Sucker Punch and Ice Shard from Chien-Pao against an already damaged Miraidon can also help deal with Miraidon in this matter.

  • Koraidon is the single most meta defining Pokémon of SV. It is the most used Pokémon in the tier, and has been since the release of HOME. Koraidon has a wide variety of viable sets, ranging from its most popular in Choice Scarf, to the most immediately threatening Choice Band, and to the most meta warping Loaded Dice. Checking Koraidon requires the use of multiple teamslots, and often a Tera Type, which turns it into the best enabler in the tier for the numerous other cleaners. Koraidon undoubtably has the biggest impact on the tier, however, the Pokémon used to check it, within their own right, are generally good Pokémon in any Ubers metagame (such as Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Arceus-Fairy, Arceus-Water etc.). In addition, Choice Scarf Koraidon provides an incredibly valuable form of speed control to the tier, and its also significantly easier to kill than most Pokémon as it cannot easily afford to run Heavy-Duty Boots, and also takes recoil from Flare Blitz. Not to mention that, Koraidon's coverage is often easily exploitable by common team structures when locked into it. Furthermore, like Miraidon, Koraidon can often be offensively checked by Zacian-C (if carrying Play Rough) and less common Pokemon such as Deoxys-Attack, Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, this last one needing prior damage on Koraidon to achieve it, and strong priority moves like Extreme Speed from Arceus and Ice Shard from Chien-Pao on a chipped Koriadon can also help manage its threat level.

  • Basculegion-M has seen a surge in popularity and controversy following a fairly successful SCL. Prior to then, it saw very little usage, mostly being relegated to Choice Band or Choice Scarf, with Swift Swim as its ability, in an effort to clean in the late game. With the rise of Sticky Web to the forefront of HO (most notably thanks to the introduction of Ribombee in DLC1), Basculegion-M explored both its movepool and abilities a bit more. Swift Swim became obsolete in favor of Agility + Adaptability, a devastating game ender that paired fantastically with Sticky Web, allowing it to naturally outspeed Koraidon and Miraidon after a speed drop, and the entire metagame after an Agility. Coupled with an immunity to Extreme Speed, solid bulk, and a secondary STAB that hits the most popular Dark type in the tier for super effective damage, Basculegion-M has quickly asserted itself as a potential problem. Simply put, the counterplay options to it are quite sparse, being limited to Arceus, super effective priority such as Sucker Punch, and Tera Normal as a defensive option on Pokémon such as Miraidon, Clodsire, and Ting Lu. All of these have inherent risks and issues, especially being limited to one Arceus form in a meta where Arceus-Ground and -Fairy are linchpins of a vast number of teams. The other methods to check Basculegion can all be circumvented through popular sets like Tera Fighting Tera Blast, or simply exhausting the opponents Tera earlier with one of the many threats HO can pack. That being said, Basculegion-M is not unbeatable. It relies heavily on Sticky Web to function at its best, it can struggle to pick up important OHKOs before it is the last remaining Pokémon, and does often need to have taken Tera out of the opponents hand to reliably win. Nevertheless, Basculegion-M's usage has skyrocketed since UWC has started, and recent survey results are concerningly high with a qualified playerbase average of 7.22/10. This all being said, it doesn't have the metagame impact that the box arts do, and given high player dissatisfaction, it may be more prudent to suspect one of the box arts first, as their departure would have a significantly larger impact on the tier.

    In regards to Basculegion-M vs Last Respects, after speaking with the tiering council, and the head tiering admin, we've concluded that if a suspect were to take place, it would be for Last Respects, not for Basculegion-M, as that is the Uber in question. Basculgeion-M is an NU Pokémon, and as such is not something within our jurisdiction to ban to AG. This does not open the door for complex bans, it is a universal move ban. We will not entertain discussion pertaining complex bans on any Pokémon in thread (e.g. banning Miraidon from using Electro Drift, or Koraidon from using Scale Shot), and any posts suggesting those will be deleted. We will also not be considering testing Basculegion-M by itself at all, and suggestions to do so will be ignored.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss which avenue would be best for Ubers to go down before the Ubers Council ultimately makes an informed decision after reading through the arguments and support given for each path in this thread. The above is a summary of where we are at in terms of the plausible suspects we could undertake, and we within the Ubers Council would like to see more evidence as to which suspect we should hold first for the betterment of the Ubers tier. We will not be suspecting multiple things at once, and it is our preference to have to suspect as few things as possible, so please bare that in mind when discussing our next move.
 

Fc

Waiting for something to happen?
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Team Rateris a Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a defending SCL Champion
Ubers Leader
speaking on behalf of myself and not ubers leaders / council

Personally, looking at the numbers for the survey my preffered course of action and the vision I see with this tier follows the path of suspecting Miraidon, then suspecting Last Respects after another check in through a survey to see if positions have changed on it. The numbers for Miraidon were incredibly high on the survey and it's been a constant topic of discussion, being the thing that appeared on most surveys aside from tera, which we mostly include now just to see if there are any substantial changes in opinion since it's usually low enough to disregard in terms of tiering action. While I don't know if I'd vote ban I can see the arguments for it, it warps building and play to a very large degree while having multiple sets that can be very powerful. I think boots is maybe the strongest pivot ever with U-turn, since it threatens so many Pokemon and can dance around the Spikes that are so common in the tier. Double dance late game can also just clean entire teams, and it's not too difficult to position usually unless you load the wrong coverage into a strong counter for it. Regardless of that it is a Pokemon that still takes skill and positioning to use, and is a very good progress maker if you can use it correctly. If anything were to go I think Miraidon just has the biggest impact on the tier while providing not much in terms of the type of broken checks broken aspect that is supposed to be common, it just hits things and enables things with its pivoting or sweeping. The reason I'm not completely convinced on voting ban is that it does have counterplay, Ting-Lu is a very strong Pokemon and Gliscor / Arceus-Ground / Arceus-Fairy all can pivot into some of its moves while being incredible Pokemon in their own right. It also can't OHKO everything with boots, so it's sometimes forced to be pressured by chip damage or revenge killed if it wants to commit to a set that isn't the pivoting one. It's not a delete everything button because its STAB moves aren't super spammable with both having top tier immunities, but it does put a lot of strain on gameplans so I'd have to give it more thought later. I don't completely mind the current metagame, though, so I would be okay with it sticking around.

Last Respects is also an obvious hit in my eyes, 7.22/10 on the qualified responses is an insane number that nothing has ever hit, so I think it's more than reasonable to suspect it. This one I'm more convinced on banning since it's just cheese which rewards just throwing Pokemon at the opponent on hyper offense until you can get in a good position, while having very limited real counterplay that isn't things like tera normal which is unviable otherwise when not on ekiller due to Koraidon and others existing and it providing nothing defensively. I think it's better to do this after Miraidon because it's the less impactful suspect of the two, so it wouldn't do too much in the way of bringing up overall satisfaction with the tier and changing how things can be played or built, aside from limiting webs just a bit.

I chose to omit Koraidon from my personal vision of suspects because I completely believe it isn't broken and is instead beneficial to the tier, an opinion I've been very vocal about in uberscord. In the same way I voted no ban on Calyrex-S in SS due to me thinking it was beneficial to the tier and it added more depth, I think the same about Koraidon, and SS in the end is still my favourite tier on this site to play. Koraidon prevents a lot of things from getting out of hand, being one of the best ways currently to stop things like DD Arceus forms or NDM, only really competing with something like Gliscor and Wisp Arceus in that regard, but both can be easily teched for. Having one of the strongest scarfers ever in such an offensive tier with tera and a bunch of set up sweepers is incredibly beneficial in my opinion, and I don't see the other sets as broken enough to warrant a ban, making Koraidon in my eyes a very clear and very good for the tier example of broken checks broken. Especially if Miraidon and Last Respects were to be banned I can see it being far easier to beat Koraidon's SD set which is the main point of contention, but even as it is now I've never thought of it as overwhelming. Usually if you can prevent the speed boost you can beat it, and tera fairy being such a good natural type helps a lot with that. Arceus-Fairy and Zacian-C are also very powerful Pokemon on their own, and Koraidon with SD Scale Shot is always vulnerable to hazards, with even soft checks like Landorus-T, Toxic Gliscor, and Kyogre all being very good at shutting it down enough for the rest of your team to win. It's by no means a weak pokemon, but it has plenty of ways to play around it and has meaningful interactions aside from just being an autowin button that even puts you behind if you manage to kill it.

None of this is set in stone, of course, this is just my opinion that I wanted to share to give an idea of where I stand on the matter and the vision I personally have for ubers going forward. I'm not a huge fan of suspecting a ton of things in ubers just based on tiering philosophy which I've made other posts on before so I won't go too into it, but I think even getting to the point of a suspect a Pokemon should hit a bar I don't see something like Koraidon doing, but the voices of the playerbase should be heard first and hopefully with at least some of this action being followed through on it would be better for everyone who actively plays the tier.
 

Taka

coastin' like crazy
is a Site Content Manageris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
Before I go in depth on my view on Miraidon and Last Respects / Basculegion-M, I want to make it clear that I am firmly against a suspect for Koraidon. Scale Shot Koraidon, despite being the strongest setup sweeper in the tier, has counterplay that current structures can reasonably handle. There is a wide range of counterplay for Koraidon in defensive Arceus formes, physical Ground-types, Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Flutter Mane and Zacian-C, priority in Extreme Speed Arceus, Tera Fairy, and more niche options such as Iron Bundle, Great Tusk, Sucker Punch Chien-Pao and Kingambit post Tera. Most structures that handle Koraidon also cover a large portion of the metagame well, including other setup sweepers like Miraidon, Kyurem-B, Dragon Dance Arceus, Necrozma-DM. Is it strong? For sure, and it isn't incredibly easy to deal with. Koraidon will be able to plow through its counterplay thanks to Tera, but thats something Gen 9 as a whole mandates playing around. Beyond just the meta defining Scale Shot set, Choice Scarf Koraidon is the glue mon holding BO and Balance together in this tier, as there is simply no other consistent speed control option. Broken checks broken is a core part of the philosophy of Ubers, and theres no other Pokemon in SV that represents this better.

Miraidon, however, I do not feel this way about. On paper, Miraidon's counterplay exists and is technically outplayable, but between HO / BO / Balance structures, and the different items and moveslots Miraidon can utilize, said counterplay becomes questionable. Pivots sets in theory take a long time to get through something like Ting-Lu / Arceus-Ground, but this becomes difficult depending on the aggressiveness of the player and the structure. Will they go for early Taunt on your Spike / Recover and set you behind a few turns? Will they turn right into a Ho-Oh on your Earthquake? This is a little game-state dependent but it can be shaky when you have to consider that once these checks are worn down a bit, the game often shifts to favor Miraidon. Structures featuring Miraidon can also vary heavily, and Pivot is just a single set with a single level of counterplay. IMO, any non-Agility set's most consistent counterplay is being forced out by Scarf Koraidon or Zacian-C. Life Orb is harder to fit and bring onto the field, but all of the counterplay from Ting-Lu / Gliscor / Arceus-Ground / Arceus-Fairy can be immediately removed from the field with Tera. I mentioned this similarly in the Koraidon section as Koraidon similarly beats most of its counterplay through the use of Tera. However, I do think Koraidon has one key difference from Miraidon here. After powering through the initial check, Koraidon cannot beat most secondary counterplay without getting a free turn to use Swords Dance (ex. Ho-Oh, defensive Arceus formes). Miraidon has the raw power to power through a lot of its counterplay afterwards (with the exception of Pivot vs Tera Ground Ho-Oh / Arceus formes). I agree with Fc that its not a delete everything button because it can be awkward to play around Ground / Fairy structures, resists like Scarf Koraidon and opposing Miraidon, and Tera, but I do think that the risk is always higher for the person facing Miraidon thanks to the immediate power Miraidon presents. I appreciate the defensive utility it provides by aggressively limiting setup like Necrozma-DM and Arceus, while still acting as a strong form of natural speed control outside of Koraidon and Zacian-C. I'm in support for a suspect of Miraidon, but I can't definitely say it should be banned because it has defined counterplay.

Last Respects is something I haven't really formed a strong opinion on yet. I do think Basculegion-M is unhealthy in the way it forces structures that are even more susceptible to Koraidon and Miraidon (using Ting as your Basc check makes dealing with Miraidon very difficult), and it doesn't have defined counterplay that is reasonable to check along with the rest of the tier. Like previously mentioned, Basculegion is usually found on Webs structures and occasionally on semi-Trick Room, where it can leverage these forms of speed control to throw out the Last Respects OHKO button. IMO, the two big issues with Basculegion are actually "checking it" and the structures with Basculegion being very forced or shaky versus the rest of the metagame. Checking Basculegion is impossible, the true way to deal with it is positioning yourself in a way where Basculegion cannot enter the field and outspeed your Pokemon lategame, or it will claim some kills. These positionings can be difficult to ascertain sometimes as well (e.g. dealing w more niche options like Choice Scarf in a position where HDB Boots Basculegion was perfectly set up against). Options like Substitute and Tera Fighting Blast can get past counterplay such as Sucker Punch, Arceus, and Ting-Lu as well. The second point I wanted to bring up is that Basculegion's forced structures can be detrimental vs other parts of the metagame. Basculegion fits best on hyper offense structures such as Webs, which often pair with Koraidon and Miraidon. Generally, a BO / balance structure with Extreme Killer Arceus relies on it paired with other fairies like Zacian-C / Flutter Mane / Tera Fairy Kyogre to take on Koraidon. In order to not fold to Koraidon, you usually Tera Fairy Kyogre or Tera Ghost / Fire Arceus. This can be awkward vs optimal structures (using Sub to scout Tera from Ogre / block Twave), and using Tera on Arceus greatly limits a teams outs vs Basculegion. Post Tera, these structures can have significant difficulty playing around sweepers like Necrozma-DM / Miraidon. In a similar manner, BO / balance structures with Ting-Lu either rely on it as the counterplay for both Miraidon + Basculegion (not an immunity so only needs some chip to die to Last Respects, and also folds to Wave Crash out of sun), or they stack Grounds, which can cause issues against Kyogre, Calyrex-Ice, and more niche options like Rayquaza. These are all mainly just examples and are not exact showcases of every game state, but it just becomes incredibly awkward in the builder to cover Basculegion alongside the top threats, while also being incredibly punishing for being too passive. I support a suspect at minimum and would support a Ban at this moment.

tl;dr ->

- no action on :koraidon:
- suspect :miraidon:
- ban :basculegion:
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Council member Manaphy here :toast:
After thinking about it for awhile, my conclusion is to ban Miraidon and Last Respects.


First and foremost, with regards to the bikes, I think it's a fairly good assumption that whichever bike goes first will likely seal the fate of the other one. Essentially, since each bike basically necessitates their own dedicated checks on the builder now, whichever goes will free open an entire new slot which can be used to help reign in the power of the other threat. As such, in deciding which one should be suspected, it's critical to evaluate what they actually provide to the tier, rather than just the raw power of their sets.

Koraidon, with a sky-high usage rating hovering around 80% in most tours, took most of the attention until very recently. This can also probably be attributed to the fact that Scale Shot was a very attention-grabbing new addition that upped Koraidon's wallbreaking and sweeping potential greatly, whereas Miraidon has been using the same tools it has had since release. Still, this super-high usage conceals the fact that Koraidon's actual most used set is Choice Scarf, which has been receiving wayyyyy more usage than Choice Scarf Miraidon does. Aberforth calling Scarf Koraidon a glue mon is no exaggeration, as it provides by far the best speed control in the tier, as well as being a critical check to Extreme Killer Arceus and Kyogre. In fact, Koraidon's sun itself can be said to be an amazing factor for the tier as a whole, as it keeps the potential of Tera Water Kyogre well under what it could be should Koraidon go. Koraidon's U-Turns also facilitate the easy switch-in of a myriad of sweepers like Flutter Mane. While the power of Scale Shot Koraidon is certainly inarguable, I think most of my fellow players in SSNL and UWC would agree on the point that Scale Shot Koraidon has not been the one often seen sweeping teams by itself, and it is usually relegated to HO teams. The power of Scale Shot Koraidon is somewhat limited by the luck factor at play when using it, as it getting the required numbers of Scale Shot hits (as well as Scale Shot hitting in the first place) is simply something a lot of balance or BO teams may not want to risk, especially for a sweeper which is vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards (and often has to take Flare Blitz recoil). Koraidon is further kept in check by the fact that most physically defensive pokemon can quite useful against it, even if they can't directly switch-in and check a +2 Koraidon. Most of them are mons you'd want to run anyway, like Ho-Oh, Landorus-T, Arceus-Water, and even NDM. Arceus-Fairy just by itself is a fantastic Pokemon that can use a well-timed Tera Water and Thunder Wave to deal with any +2 Tera Fire Flare Blitz that Koraidon may throw at it, giving Koraidon a quite reasonable check that, while vulnerable to hazard damage, does critically sport reliable recovery (something that Miraidon's best check can't claim).

Meanwhile, Miraidon is simply more suffocating both gameplay-wise and in the builder. Dealing with Miraidon is much more limited by what is able to switch into it, in part due to its better breaking ability, but also due to the fact that special walls are just harder to come by in this tier. Whereas a lot of teams can get by by using a bunch of pseudo-Koraidon checks, Miraidon basically requires a dedicated specially defensive Ground type for it, whether that be Ting-Lu, Arceus-Ground, SpD Gliscor, or Clodsire, preferably with a Fairy-type in the back for pivoting purposes like Zacian-C and Flutter Mane. A critical thing to note here is that many of these checks have large issues; Fairy-types fold if they get hit by Drift, whereas Arceus-Ground and Clodsire simply don't have the bulk to handle repeated or Specs Draco Meteors and have to use a very predictable Recover to stay healthy. Ting-Lu, historically the best Miraidon check, has the raw bulk to deal with Miraidon, and it has good utility with Ruination and hazards to make its time on the field quite useful. However, Ting-Lu has no recovery and it's vulnerable to all forms of entry hazards, making it extremely vulnerable in the long-term. This can often make many SV games feel like a game of a whack-a-mole, where whoever can just pressure with Miraidon and hazards earlier in the game just wins. Since Ting-Lu is ironically vulnerable to the same hazards it itself can set, and makes for a great opportunity for Gliscor to come in and lay entry hazards down, Miraidon has the effect of intensifying how entry hazard-focused the meta already is. And for this, Miraidon itself adds.... well, Miraidon adds next to nothing in terms of non-offensive utility. It can be useful as a switch-in for Kyogre, although not as much as Koraidon is due to sun, and it can also pull off a decent Choice Scarf set, but it's far less used than Koraidon is thanks to checking less things. Miraidon is simply a dedicated breaker through and through, and I don't think much would be lost if it was gone.

While it's not quite proper to speculate on metas that don't exist yet, I think a Miraidon-less meta has some quite obvious positive impacts. For one, freeing up the slot that was used to check Miraidon gives a lot more room to check other threats that are very difficult to deal with now, like DD Necrozma-DM, Kyogre, and of course Koraidon. It likely helps the overabundance of entry hazards thanks to Ting-Lu becoming nonexistent (probably leading to some lower Gliscor usage downstream as well). Perhaps mons like Eternatus and Giratina-O could be fit much easier on structures, making Toxic Spikes less threating and making actually Defogging more of a possibility. Most importantly, it takes away the entire gameplay debate of "Will their Miraidon Draco or Drift?" than can plague a vast amount of SV games. While debates like that are nothing new to the Ubers tier, I think most players personally find that dealing with Miraidon simply costs more than it benefits. Meanwhile, a Koraidon-less meta leads to the end of the most useful glue mon in the tier and likely makes Kyogre an even more massive threat than it is now, while also keeping the meta extremely hazard-focused. It's due to all these factors that I think Miraidon should be the one to go.

In regards to Last Respects, while I don't think it is outright broken, it is certainly strong enough to have a degenerate impact on teambuilding. You definitely do not see Basculegion sweeping teams left and right all the time, but it does often force having a Tera Normal on the team which essentially has no use outside of checking Basculegion. I think it forces a building issue extremely similar to the debate on using Shed Shell on mons back in the days of Shadow Tag Gothitelle in SS; preparing for Last Respects directly negatively impacts you in all other match-ups, but not preparing for it means you can easily lose almost on preview. Most players do not find this type of teambuilding challenge healthy or fun, and neither do I. I think taka's post sums up Basculegion in more detail quite excellently. While I think suspecting a bike first is better due to being more critical to the meta as a whole, I'd be quite happy seeing Basculegion out of the picture first too.
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
One of the principles that I believe Ubers should abide by is to have as few suspects or bans needed to create a healthy metagame. As such, my preference would be to take the path which would most likely lead to the healthiest metagame in the shortest number of tiering actions necessary. As such, I believe that suspect testing Miraidon first would be the optimal path for Ubers to take.

I share the opinion of all three of Manaphy, Taka, and Fc that, while arguably broken, Koraidon provides a lot of inherent value to the tier and is the "right sort of broken" for Ubers. Certainly, of the three, it is the one that I would argue has the most positive effect on the Ubers meta, both in teambuilding and in the game.

Miraidon is one of the most absurd pokemon we have ever experienced. While it isnt close to as broken as SV Calyrex-S was, it is an incredible combination of speed, power, bulk, typing and movepool that just warps the teambuilding environment to what I believe is an unhealthy degree. While there are a couple of Pokemon that can technically check it, all of them are supremely passive and Miraidon can comfortably get around any individual one with essentially the same set (CM, Dragon Stab, Electric Stab, Coverage/Utility move), although doing so normally requires committing your tera and can leave you open to the more offensive counterplay to Miriadon. But I believe this presence alone warps the teambuilder side of things substantially, and enough that I believe that Miraidon should be the suspect of choice.

Last Respects is something I believe is actually more fundamentally broken than Miraidon. As good as Miraidon is, it cant OHKO an Arceus unless it can hit one Super-Effectively, but Last Respects allows Basculegion to do that to all Arceus that do not resist it. There are almost no good teambuilding-level counterplay options to Last Respects beyond either using Ekiller Arceus (preventing you from using three fantastic Arceus forms in Ground/Fairy/Water which are all very valuable in helping deal with Miraidon/Koraidon), or slapping a Tera Normal/Maybe Dark on a pokemon and hoping that you can withstand the rest of the HO team without needing to use your Tera type. As such, in the event your opponent has brought a Basculegion, you are in an uphill battle the entire game to position yourself such that you do not leave Basculegion in the situation it can set up an Agility and just OHKO every pokemon on your team. Easier said than done. But why Miraidon before Last Respects then? Essentially, because the counterplay to Last Respects is so limited in the teambuilder, suspecting Last Respects would not have a meaningful impact on the rest of the tier, or people's enjoyment of it. It is possible for the added flexibility in teambuilding to give rise to more Basculegion counterplay when an incredibly specially bulky Ground type isnt mandatory on all non-offensive teams, and if it continues to be a problem, we could look at it then. But the most undoubtedly impactful suspect would be the one that had the greater meta influence, and given Basculegion's relative lack of influence on the tier in comparison to how good it is, I favour tabling Basculegion until later in the generation.
 

Kate

Metamodernity
is a Tiering Contributoris a Past SCL Champion
RBTT Champion
I can't say I agree with the sentiments expressed in the thread so far. Ultimately, I believe all 3 of these pokemon to be malignant presences in the tier, Koraidon only serving to belie underlying issues within Ubers. Nevertheless, I do acknowledge it's the least pressing here; my main issues with it stem from extreme builder restriction and how easily it can force defensive Teras for its teammates to later clean. However, Miraidon and Basculegion can do similar things, and on a base level I think both are more broken than Korai.

I don't ascribe to the value of what a Mon brings to a tier when determining if it should be suspected, and as such I care little about the many ways in which Koraidon adds to the Ubers tier. Simply, Miraidon is just more stupid. Double Dance, Boots Pivot, Taunt CM, Specs, Scarf, all operate with unparalleled lethality and thus have almost zero opportunity cost due to the absurd power level of Mirai. There are no long term checks, there are barely checks in general. You are pigeonholed into running Grounds that don't get ohkoed by draco and limiting the turns it can come in, an extremely difficult task due to Miraidons good bulk and its natural pairing with pivot options like Scarf Koraidon. It has a plethora of Tera Options to avoid revenge killing and invalidating defensive counterplay, and creates a completely unhealthy tiering dynamic.

That being said, Last Respects should absolutely be suspected first. I fully believe Basculegion to be far more broken than anything else in the tier right now and I don't think it's particularly close. I wrote a majority of the OP's section on Basc, and that's basically where I stand on it. Any defensive counterplay can be easily overcome, and the best answers to it (whether it be scarfers or Tera Normal) are just straight up not at all reliable. It's not nearly as splashable as the bikes, and people thinking that it is has led to its winrate in UWC not being spectacular, but there is nothing close to as threatening as a well played Basculegion. Additionally, I fail to understand why suspecting Miraidon would be the first thing on the agenda. In the event of a bike ban, a huge tiering shift would undoubtedly occur, further delaying a basculegion suspect as we wait for the meta to develop. Alternatively, a ban on Last Respects changes very little about the tier, letting us transition into the next suspect faster and more efficiently. Sure, players may end up being more unsatisfied for two weeks here, but seeing the wide scale hatred of Basculegion, and knowing it'd be far longer of a process to ban if Miraidon were to go first, I see little reason not to suspect LR initially.

A small note I'd like to make is that this was originally likely to be a thread about Koraidon, Miraidon, and Basculegion, but was denied in favor of Last Respects. The logic for this seems fairly sound at first; LR is a proven broken element in OU and offers a clean ban option, but its one I heavily disagree with. LR is far from a proven broken move in Ubers; frankly it doesn't even come close right now. Every other user of the move besides Basculegion-M is utterly irrelevant and sees zero usage. While this is in part due to Basculegion just being so much better than them that it makes it worthless to run others, I don't get how this invalidates a simple burden of proof that the element we should be targeting is indeed the move and not Basc-M. I'm aware that Basc-F could prove to be a broken Mon with LR as well in a hypothetical where Male was not in the tier, but as of right now we have zero proof of this. I fail to understand why Ubers should be forced to suspect a move that fails to meet any sort of bar for brokenness, instead of the singular Mon that abuses the move to an overwhelming extent. I don't understand why "optics" would override such a thing.
 

LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
Before I go into order of magnitude, I'd like to open a can of worms discussion of one course of action. Generally speaking, I agree with FC, Taka and Aber in regards to Miraidon > LR > Korai in order of pressing. However, I'd like to throw open a proposition in the open right now, whether or not it's taken is something else.

Quickbanning Last Respects. While I understand that Ubers is very very hesitant to QB any elements unless wildly necessary, there are numerous factors that can be used to justify such action. 1: LR/Basc-M received the highest support for action out of anything in Ubers, ever. That in and of itself is something I find particularly damning, especially since Caly-S this gen was nigh unplayable, and miraidon or others are far more common within Ubers itself. So seeing something that is, by and large, uncommon receive that level of support speaks to just how absurd Last Respects is. It's a wildly uncompetitive element that just straight up rewards losing, and the payoff for getting cooked 90% of the game is frankly lunacy levels of power, capable of OHKOing practically anything besides an EXTREMELY small amount of pokemon, in the whole dex. It's counterplay outside of just Ekiller is extremely suspect, as other things like Tera Normal Ting Lu are such bad wastes of a tera slot, let alone use, outside of this pokemon that it's just plain bad. It's restrictive and sometimes there's just nothing that can be done to deal with Basc-M, it's nearly inevitable, and I do think a quickban should be on the table for an element like this.

As for whether what to suspect first, despite my pleas for a QB, I'd vote Miraidon. While Last Respects is comfortably more broken, Miraidon feels it's influence on every single ubers game, whether it shows up or not. It's ability to blitz past whatever it wants, even with "gimmicky" sets like LO Solar Beam for Ting Lu, alongside the added mentions of Taunt U-turn, CM T-Dragon, Scarf T-Ghost, Double Dance, and others. It's counterplay is frankly shit, and all of it's options besides Arc-Ground are things i'd rather not load in general, and Sp def Arc-Ground is sp def Yveltal levels of mediocore. The thing with Miraidon, and what I find is the difference between it and say, SS Calyrex-S, is that it doesn't really have any checks you can run that are "niche". While they weren't great, things like Zarude and Tyranitar DID exist if players wanted to reach down to change it up. Miraidon simply doesn't have this. It's Ting Lu, Clodsire, Sp def Arc-Ground, and Gliscor. Anybody else is praying you send in the fairy type on the dragon move and dont end up taking 90 from an electro drift.

Koraidon can just wait honestly. As much as i loathe this thing, I don't think it's as dire as either of the other 2, and I'd be fine with holding off until we get the other 2 gone. Don't have much to say on the matter at this point, everything that can be said on Koraidon has already been said.
 
Last edited:

Nyx

Anyways - so then I cursed her.
is a Site Content Manageris a Programmeris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
I don't have a tonne to say that hasn't been already stated, so this will be short, mostly quoting other people, but I figured it's worth showing support here.

tl;dr by preference is tho:

Suspect Miraidon
Suspect Basculegion
Do nothing
Suspect Koraidon

I don't care what we do after, planning for a future metagame is unrealistic so I'm only going to talk about my first preferred course of action.

General enjoyment is currently sitting at 6.59/10, which is a drop from every previous survey. The number itself isn't too bad but a drop like this when all previous numbers were around 7/10 is something we've taken note of. Stability sits at 5.67/10, which is also very low compared to past surveys. Both of these numbers taking a relatively large drop is a concern and we're looking for the best solutions to solve this. Not pictured are the qualified responses to these questions, which were a 5.95 on enjoyment and a 5.05 on stability, even lower numbers which are alarming for the state of the metagame to say the least.
Enjoyment and perceived stability are at an all time low (for all surveys done in Ubers). It's clear that something has to change. Not the strongest motive behind my reasoning for wanting a ban, but it certainly plays a part.

Personally I'm of the belief that Ubers should never quickban something unless it's so blatantly uncompetitive (see Evasion). Last Respects, while centralising, is not uncompetitve enough to justify a quickban in my eyes. It still has consistent counterplay as people have outlined before. Would be incredibly happy went via suspect but a QB in Ubers sounds like a meme. I do not have the certainty to say that it will be as broken/centralising with Miraidon gone to say it needs an outright QB.

Miraidon is one of the most absurd pokemon we have ever experienced. While it isnt close to as broken as SV Calyrex-S was, it is an incredible combination of speed, power, bulk, typing and movepool that just warps the teambuilding environment to what I believe is an unhealthy degree. While there are a couple of Pokemon that can technically check it, all of them are supremely passive and Miraidon can comfortably get around any individual one with essentially the same set (CM, Dragon Stab, Electric Stab, Coverage/Utility move), although doing so normally requires committing your tera and can leave you open to the more offensive counterplay to Miriadon. But I believe this presence alone warps the teambuilder side of things substantially, and enough that I believe that Miraidon should be the suspect of choice.
Aber and the others with similar points have outlined exactly why I feel this way about banning Miraidon first. I'm not a believer that having to use mediocre Pokémon that would otherwise not be contending in the tier on their own footing (Ting-Lu, Clodsire, Iron Treads), or being forced to sack something turn 1 to figure out the Miraidon set is healthy. This isn't a SS Calyrex-S case, Yveltal was fucking cracked out of its mind with or without Calyrex-S existing - we're using (realtively speaking) mediocre Pokémon to check the strongest this game has ever seen. Sp.Def Groundceus is a solid check but it comes with such an insane opportunity cost, you're missing out on Fairyceus, Waterceus, EKiller, or even just offensive Groundceus sets in favour of it, that in my eyes is too much of a building constraint, while also still being incredibly effective in spite of these two.

I want to make it clear that I am firmly against a suspect for Koraidon. Scale Shot Koraidon, despite being the strongest setup sweeper in the tier, has counterplay that current structures can reasonably handle. There is a wide range of counterplay for Koraidon in defensive Arceus formes, physical Ground-types, Kyogre, Ho-Oh, Flutter Mane and Zacian-C, priority in Extreme Speed Arceus, Tera Fairy, and more niche options such as Iron Bundle, Great Tusk, Sucker Punch Chien-Pao and Kingambit post Tera. Most structures that handle Koraidon also cover a large portion of the metagame well, including other setup sweepers like Miraidon, Kyurem-B, Dragon Dance Arceus, Necrozma-DM. Is it strong? For sure, and it isn't incredibly easy to deal with. Koraidon will be able to plow through its counterplay thanks to Tera, but thats something Gen 9 as a whole mandates playing around. Beyond just the meta defining Scale Shot set, Choice Scarf Koraidon is the glue mon holding BO and Balance together in this tier, as there is simply no other consistent speed control option. Broken checks broken is a core part of the philosophy of Ubers, and theres no other Pokemon in SV that represents this better.
Once again, perfectly summed up my thoughts. Suspecting this is just a waste of all of our time. I can't even use the enjoyment argument here, there's legitimately not going to be a benefit to testing this while the other two are in the tier, this threads already made it clear that you just won't get the support for it.

Apologies for the short, mostly repetitive post, but I figured voicing opinions is worthwhile even if its more of the same.
 
I want to begin my post by addressing the results of the survey and say that, while enjoyment is at an all time low for SV Ubers, the numeric value is still way above the half-way point. I would be more worried about it if it barely passed that mark or if it had gone down by large margin, however, it only went down only by essentially 3 decimals. I think using solely enjoyment as a way to justify any action is frankly very misguided because enjoyment is, when you get down to it, subjective. I think if action were to be taken it has to happen parting from the objective valuation of each individual suspect at hand in a case by case basis.

Now, when it comes to those, I want to talk about Miraidon first.


Miraidon

A lot has been said about Miraidon, and while I do agree that some of the stuff people have mentioned is true to a considerable degree, I think whatever negative aspects it brings to the table are often overexaggerated and the good that it does provide is downplayed or twisted in some way or another. Miraidon is without a doubt, the strongest breaker in the current metagame. Its raw power does force you to run a Ground-type that is heavily invested in Special Defense on bulkier and more passive structures. Despite that, I don't think that the pokemon that fit into the category are as bad and mediocre as people make them out to be, and even if they were, I believe that is hardly relevant because at the end of the day, they are viable checks against Miraidon and we have other 5 slots on the team to make up for their alleged shortcomings.

Furthermore, the odds of breaking teams are not completely in Miraidon's favor. More often than not, it needs to accurately gauge which of its respective Dual STAB moves (or U-turn) to use against teams that commonly have Electric and Dragon immunities to accurately get the most out of a turn. Not to mention that some of the viable strategies that are used in order to check Miraidon also involve the use of surprise Tera Ground pokemon such as Ho-Oh, Necrozma-Dusk Mane and Arceus-Fairy. Between this, its defensive and offensive checks, I believe checking Miraidon is more than feasible.

In the grand scheme of things, Miraidon has enough variations of counterplay despite it being so effective at its job. Just as it has essentially 4-5 (if you count Iron Treads) effective defensive countermeasures, it more or less the same amount of options for offensively counterplay. Zacian-C, Iron Bundle, Deoxys-Attack and strong priority users such as Arceus and Chien-Pao are good examples of this and their prowess shouldn't be dismissed due to how splashable they may or may not be on bulkier structures. Over the extent of Post-HOME meta, Scarlet and Violet Ubers has always proven that proactive solutions are more consistent than passive ones.

I also want to mention that, comparing the dynamics of Miraidon and its checks in SV to that of Calyrex--S and Yveltal in SS is completely out of place. Not only are the two generations completely different, Miraidon doesn't have the same effect Calyrex-S did in such a metagame. If we really want to talk about this, whether Yveltal was a good pokemon or not, it being the sole viable defensive answer to a top pokemon meant you specifically had to use it just so you don't lose to Calyrex, which is why it received the usage it did in high-level play. Such is nowhere near the same with Miraidon. I don't mean to derail from the central topic but I felt like it needed to be addressed.

To summarize, similarly to what Fc mentioned before, Miraidon is a pokemon that rewards the player for playing effectively with it, it requires an accurate measurement on how to position it against its checks and provides the player with a strong, yet healthy option for wallbreaking and sweeping. It is a top tier pokemon but not one that is completely unfeasible to play around, It has enough defensive and offensive counterplay. This is why on Miraidon I would go with No Action.


Koraidon

Most people on this thread have panned out why Koraidon doesn't require action. I more or less agree with what they have said. Koraidon is a pokemon that holds the tier together in a healthy way, its most common sets are exploitable and have many different forms of counterplay. I don't feel like I need to expand a lot on this for the sake of not being too repetitive. I would consider No Action on it as well.


Last Respects

Last Respects is a very interesting turnout in the survey. I can see that it is uncomfortable from both a teambuilding and playing standpoint. In most scenarios, it is very easy to set up Last Respects with a highly offensive team. And while I don't think Last Respects is as one sided as it is talked about, it does punish teams that don't carry explicit countermeasures such as Normal type or a Tera Normal Pokemon on your team.

The main reason as to why I have not completely decided what my stance on it is that, its most common team archetypes are very "Hit or Miss". Sticky Webs and Trick Room Offense are not as consistent in the current meta as players would hope. They can get completely blocked by a balance team that can withstand the onslaught and against offense it has to properly set up webs and position itself correctly against generally faster pokemon.

Regardless, if I were to choose on what to take action first, it would be Last Respects. Like I said, I haven't decided my stance on it but I can see why people are bothered by and that it has very little positive influence in the tier. On Last Respects I'd consider a Suspect Test for it.


General Thoughts


As a disclaimer, this is just my opinion and I don't speak for anyone else but myself. I also want to mention that I very much enjoy the current state of the metagame. The top tier pokemon hold a lot of influence over the tier but with Tera in the equation it provides a lot of room for creativity and variety. It is a metagame which gives the player a lot of space for exploration and that is why I believe there is hardly any need for change, it's a meta that is constantly evolving for the better.

The way I look at things, Scarlet and Violet Ubers is more or less a proactive metagame. Whether we're comfortable with it or not and, as mentioned before, some of the best ways to tackle its controversial aspects have always favored practical and dynamic solutions, rather than theoretical and passive measures. I think that exploration and adaptation in a tier that allows it as much as this one (or lack thereof) will likely dictate what actions are taken or not taken in the future.


TL;DR:

Miraidon: No Action
Koraidon: No Action
Last Respects: Suspect Test
 

entrocefalo

is a Top Tiering Contributor
NatDex Slam Winner
I won't add much reasoning since all aspects have been covered at this point; my opinion is close to what LouisIX already explained in his post.
Choosing to suspect Basculegion first seems quite odd, considering the survey results. I support a quick ban (I won't go into the details of whether to ban the move or the Pokémon itself, as this has already been discussed).

I find a suspect test of Basculegion to be counterproductive, as it would inevitably lead to its certain ban while delaying even more a Miraidon/Koraidon suspect. My ideal path would be the following:

------------------
- Quick Ban (QB) Basculegion/Last respect
- Suspect Miraidon
- Wait for the metagame to stabilize and eventually suspect Koraidon.
-------------------

I know that Ubers cant QB stuff apparently (there could be some room for discussion about this), as such the previous route might not be possible; therefore my second option would be:

-------------------
- Suspect Miraidon
- Suspect Basculegion/Last respect
- Suspect Koraidon
-------------------


I placed a potential Koraidon suspect as the last option since the latest DLC introduced Ho-Oh and Necrozma Dusk Mane, which could potentially limit Koraidon's presence. This ultimately led to Miraidon being more game-breaking.

Whatever is the final decision, I encourage acting rather fast. More than one year has passed since SV release, and in my opinion, the problems in the tier were already clear before the release of the second DLC:

After the first DLC -> Scale shot Koraidon + Agility Miraidon
After the second DLC -> Miraidon


I believe the "Basculegion problem" to be the result of the unbalanced nature of the metagame, leading to significant restrictions on team building. That's why I prefer the Quick Ban option, reserving the possibility of retesting if Koraidon is banned.

 

Minority

Numquam Vincar
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Just want to briefly share some thoughts as a council member.

When talking about overreaching concepts such as "the next step for Ubers tiering" there's benefit in having a perspective that takes a step back without getting too caught up in the minutia of the month. Pokemon has changed a lot in the last three and a half years with emphasis on power creep, generational gimmicks designed without consideration for singles play, and rapid update cycles with some similarities to AAA pvp action games. These changes have made it more difficult for a community to craft and maintain a competitive game within Pokemon and have subsequently forced singles players to confront uncomfortable questions about tiering.

Ubers' tiering identity is crafting a competitive singles experience with a minimum number of bans. In the past arguments about clauses and bans were always related to how game elements reduced competitive edge against what their ban collateral was. In stark contrast, the rhetoric in this thread reads not unlike a PR or suspect from any other tier. Unfortunately, it seems we no longer have the luxury to fully approach tiering as we used to since GameFreak continues to add game elements that intentionally trivialize competitive singles play. Ubers must carefully evaluate how it approaches tiering policy to make the tier enjoyable to play, but also to maintain a unique niche and identity. Many years ago it was proposed that current Ubers had already replaced the original spirit of OU and now it's more obvious than ever we're far past that point, which isn't an inherently bad thing.

Prior to the last suspect test we were forced to make a decision with how we would tier SV, and that decision was to save Terastallization. I won't get into the details as to if Tera hurts or helps the tier, but it highlights how choosing battles is important because of how prior decisions irrevocably shape tiering. It's been understated how lame it is to suspect the box legends of a Pokemon game. Banning Koraidon and / or Miraidon would be a perfect metaphor for how SV sacrificed identity in its sheer pursuit of playability, one that also seems to be at odds with the decision to save Tera. At what point does a playerbase take a step back and decide maybe an iteration of a game is simply lackluster? At what point does the overall optimal process of tiering a metagame become a nebulous gray? At what point are we no longer even playing the game and just dabbling in fan-fiction? Unless you have definitive answers to these questions then you should at least consider that sometimes its okay for an iteration of a tier to be mediocre; after all, we all have different opinions about the best metagames anyway. This is not to say that this is where we are now, but rather where we could be headed if we get too happy about axing things one after another in hopes of a better game that never arrives. In five years time I'd rather see SV Ubers as a novelty tier where you can at least use the Pokemon advertised on the cover, rather than a botched disaster that's neither fun nor seems like it even fits into an Ubers lineup. There should be consideration for SV as a whole and an avoidance to being tunnel-visioned in an absolute attempt to make SV better than it is.

Suspect Last Respects.
 

shiloh

is a Member of Senior Staffis a Top Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnusis a Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
Tiering Lead
hi, was asked to make a post since a few members of the community have requested a quick ban of last respects, but I wanted to make clear that it really isnt on the table and the only options are the ones listed in the OP.

To keep it simple, while Ubers is no longer just "the banlist of OU" since the introduction of Mega Ray, it still is expected to have a somewhat higher "threshold" for bans, as can be seen by there being a 66% pro-ban percentage needed in suspect tests. Quickbans in Ubers are also extremely rare and only reserved for the most pressing of issues, most recently it was Caly-S and that was only due to the timing of it being released and big tours happening right at the same time. It even got retested right away after the ban. Aside from that pretty much all other Ubers bans have been public tests, and thats how it should remain going forward as well.

In general quickbans are only really reserved for right after game releases / big tier shifts (in lower tiers), and anything thats been around for longer than a few months generally has been a suspect test. There have obviously been exceptions to this, thinking Volcarona most recently in SV OU, but for the most part it is fairly unprecedented to quickban something thats been around for around a year at this point. It hadnt even popped up on things like tiering surveys till this past month, and still has yet to see super high usage in tours like Ubers World Cup or on the ladder. It would perhaps be a different argument if Last Respects picked up high usage and was called for a ban shortly after Basculegion was released, but even in that case it would most likely be suspect tested before making it a council only decision due to the way Ubers tiering should work.

At this point Last Respects doesn't meet any criteria for a quickban even in other tiers, and trying to say it should get one in Ubers with its higher threshold is a pretty hard no.
 

Aberforth

is a Top Social Media Contributoris a Member of Senior Staffis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Ubers Leader
Following this thread, and given how relatively close the two options appeared, the Ubers Council has held a vote on what Ubers' next suspect will be. The Ubers Council is currently at 8 members due to a member leaving council a few weeks ago. Here are the results of that vote.

AberforthEdgarEntrocefaloFcFogbound LakeKateManaphyMinority
MiraidonLast RespectsMiraidonMiraidonLast RespectsLast RespectsMiraidonLast Respects

Because this resulted in a tie, upon consulting with the tiering administration, we have decided to test Miraidon, with the tier leader's votes being the tiebreaker. Thanks for everyone who provided feedback and opinion in this thread.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top